MoreRSS

site iconThe New YorkerModify

The full text is output by feedx. A weekly magazine since 1925, blends insightful journalism, witty cartoons, and literary fiction into a cultural landmark.
Please copy the RSS to your reader, or quickly subscribe to:

Inoreader Feedly Follow Feedbin Local Reader

Rss preview of Blog of The New Yorker

The Ancient Roots of Doing Time

2025-12-08 19:06:03

2025-12-08T11:00:00.000Z

In Ryan George’s wonderful “Pitch Meeting” series, on YouTube, the excitable producer character, relishing the eager screenwriter character’s ability to load a conflict with life-or-death consequences, always enunciates “stakes!” with shivering excitement. Similarly, when we read non-narrative scholarly books, what we want in exchange for all the minutiae is a sense that something significant, something we might call stakesy, is on the line. When scholars debate the dating of the Gospels, the time difference may seem small, but the stakes are obvious: Were these texts written by contemporaries of Jesus or not? Another book, say, on eighteenth-century musket design, may take many pages before it reveals that nothing less than the proper interpretation of the Second Amendment is in play.

Matthew D. C. Larsen and Mark Letteney’s “Ancient Mediterranean Incarceration” (California) is a dense, sometimes exhaustingly detailed work, but its stakes turn out to be as high as can be: the origins and meaning of incarceration itself. The central question is whether incarceration is a special affliction of the post-Enlightenment world, as Michel Foucault argued in his epoch- marking 1977 book, “Discipline and Punish”—a position that by the late twentieth century had become, well, almost gospel. What if the history of incarceration is, in fact, remarkably continuous across time, place, and circumstance? Foucault’s enveloping project was to recast Western history as a series of closed “epistemes,” or governing structures of thought, each redefining conventional terms like “reason” and “humanity” according to the brute dictates of power. If the central plank of this hugely influential model is rotten, then the whole might be shakier than it looks.

The Best Books of 2025

Discover the year’s essential reads in fiction and nonfiction.

Much of today’s prison-reform and abolitionist literature rests on the Foucauldian view of incarceration as a distinctly modern cruelty. Foucault’s thesis, advanced as much by oracular assertion as by sustained scholarly argument, was that, before modernity, punishment was almost always physical and absolute. Those designated as criminals, he contended, were torn apart, hanged, or thrown to wild beasts, but rarely locked away alone for decades in institutions designed for the purpose. Temporary confinement in a dungeon might precede crucifixion or a trip to the lions, but the notion of serving a fixed sentence in a cell was, to Foucault, a historically recent development. Instead, punishment was more likely to take the form of fines or of exile—the fate that befell the poet Ovid.

For Foucault, the defining image of pre-modern punishment was the almost unimaginably brutal execution of the would-be royal assassin Robert-François Damiens, in the Paris of Fontenelle and Voltaire. Despite having done little actual harm to Louis XV, Damiens was tortured to death before a crowd—his hands and feet burned, his flesh torn apart by horses. Such punishments, Foucault argued, were aimed at the body: to banish it or to destroy it. The Enlightenment, by contrast, privileged the mind, so the point of punishment shifted to “reform”—to the improvement of a mis-set mind by locking its owner away for years, presumably to give him time to educate it.

Foucault, for his part, did not necessarily see the shift from spectacular violence to confinement as an advance in decency or compassion. To be locked away for decades was not, in his eyes, more humane than being torn apart in a public square—though Damiens himself might have had a different opinion. Only when the mind, rather than the body or the soul, was seen as the true locus of danger did confinement become the preferred solution. In Foucault’s account, the prison cell is not a monument to humanity but a cage for errant consciousness.

Against the idea that modern incarceration is a wholly novel phenomenon, the evidence from antiquity proves to be both abundant and conclusive. Throughout the Mediterranean world—during the Hellenistic, Roman, and Byzantine eras—there were prisons, not just temporary holding cells for the condemned en route to execution but purpose-built structures designed to house people for extended periods. As Larsen and Letteney note, it is curious that anyone ever doubted this, given that Vitruvius, the great Roman architectural theorist, explicitly listed a prison alongside a treasury and a meeting house as standard features of a proper city center, or forum. An ancient prison, the Tullian, still sits in the heart of Rome, preserved in part because a Christian church was built atop it to honor the tradition that Peter and Paul were held there before their executions. The Tullian, a dark, wet, cold underground chamber, was used for so many centuries that it was twice renovated and became a model for other prisons throughout the Empire. At least four “civic prisons”—distinct from those attached to military camps or slave-labor mines—have been identified, all following a similar architectural plan.

Hard labor and prison farms were as much a feature of the ancient world as they are of our own. In recent decades, archeologists have uncovered a major Roman prison complex at Simitthus, in present-day Tunisia—a facility capable of holding more than a thousand prisoners in conditions that were, for the time, reasonably sanitary. Built beside a marble mine, it housed slaves and prisoners sentenced to short and long terms as laborers. Larsen and Letteney draw a direct comparison between Simitthus and the notorious Eastern State Penitentiary, built in nineteenth-century Pennsylvania, one of Foucault’s emblematic Enlightenment prisons. Simitthus, too, was designed for surveillance, discipline, and punishment—a place where the metaphysical machinery of incarceration was already in operation.

Tales of ancient incarceration, which might once have seemed the stuff of legend, turn out, again and again, to have an archeological foundation. Plutarch, the first-century Greek historian, described the misery of a prisoner in the Greek town of Messene; modern excavations have confirmed his account down to the details. A story by the Greco-Roman satirist Lucian, meanwhile, assumes the existence of established protocols for seeing prisoners, including fixed visiting hours—assumptions that make sense only if such routines were part of civic life. The rules of Roman sentencing may have been imprecise, but life sentences certainly existed, and the prisons were genuinely residential, not merely meant for holding people before execution.

People knew about incarceration. Seneca, the Roman philosopher and dramatist (and court counsellor), argued that punishment should be proportionate to the crime, and resisted the notion that every offense required execution. Some crimes, he claimed, called for little more than “a private rebuke followed by public disgrace”; others warranted exile, chains, and imprisonment. In an inscription from the third century C.E., a prisoner named Theodorus thanks the gods after having served a term of twenty-two months in a civic prison—proof that “doing time” was not an invention of the modern era. Graduated, reform-minded incarceration, Larsen and Letteney insist, was present more than a millennium before the Foucauldian model says it was born.

Indeed, some of the most enduring myths of antiquity—often retold, even more often depicted—make sense only against the backdrop of long-term imprisonment. The tale of Pero and Cimon, for instance, is as potent as it is oddly Freudian: Pero, a young woman, visits her starving father, Cimon, in a prison and sustains him with her own breast milk. The scene appears in Roman frescoes, including a surviving example in Pompeii, and after the Renaissance it became a staple of Western art—Rubens, naturally, offered his own disturbingly fleshy version. The story continued to be cited and pictured as an exemplar of Roman charity, but the fable couldn’t have taken root if the idea of Cimon’s long sentence hadn’t resonated with an ancient audience. (The famous Gospel episode featuring Barabbas—the prisoner whom Pilate offers to exchange for Jesus—depends on the plausibility, for a second-century audience, of prolonged imprisonment with the possibility of parole.)

Ancient prisons, of course, had their own distinctive character. Most were underground, like the Tullian in Rome—buried chambers with little light or air, and only the most rudimentary latrines. (One imagines a Foucauldian history of sewage and sanitation, which might prove more pivotal in the shaping of civilization than law or punishment.) Certainly, the stench of antique prisons is the dominant note in the ancient reporting. And, although the microbial mechanisms of disease were unknown, it was obvious that these circumstances were insalubrious in the extreme; a set sentence could easily become a death sentence.

Woman shopping at Small Guitars store that is across the street from Big Ukuleles store.
“No. Have you tried across the street?”
Cartoon by Edward Steed

Even that condition, though, is familiar from the debtors’ prisons in Dickens, depicted in the midst of Victorian prosperity. The atmosphere of ancient prisons recalls the ones in “Little Dorrit” and “The Pickwick Papers”: situated in the middle of the city, with a relatively transparent membrane between the streets and the cells, allowing affluent letter writers and provisioners easy access to those inside. There was a kind of constant civic bargaining between guards and prisoners, depending on social status or, more to the point, the money that one had for bribes and favors.

In the end, Larsen and Letteney make their polemical point unambiguously plain. “The modern prison,” they write, “is not a new construction but an old and haunted house.” For all the differences between ancient and modern practice, they conclude, “some aspects of incarceration have appeared in every Mediterranean society for which we have historical data.” Turning decisively against Foucault, they write that incarceration may be “a facet of every hierarchical, complex society.” In other words, it’s always been with us.

What’s at stake in this study is more than the truth or falsity of Foucault’s account of modern incarceration. It is our picture of history itself, and of how incommensurable one period truly is with another. Under the influence of Foucault and his contemporaries, many scholars treat the so-called dialogue of the dead—the imagined passage back and forth between eras—as a kind of pious fiction. Where the third Annales school spoke of mentalités, a shared cast of mind or sensibility, Foucault proposed a more radical concept: the episteme, a matter not of shared psychology but of the governing rules and structures that determine what can be thought or said at any given moment. We are as closed off from the ancients’ mind-set as firmly as they are from ours; their assumptions and tacit expectations about the order of things are lost to us.

It seems possible that prisons existed almost as an afterthought to Roman theories of law. In Andrew M. Riggsby’s “Crime and Community in Ciceronian Rome,” for instance, we are given detailed studies of some of Cicero’s surviving legal arguments in defense of Romans accused usually of high crimes, like extortion and conspiracy. There seems enormous and striking contemporaneity in the kind of reasoning Cicero uses—sometimes appealing to the letter of the law, sometimes to a larger framework of social good, so that an accused who can be shown to have done much good in the past ought to be acquitted of a presented misdeed. But there are few references to what will happen to the accused after they are convicted or acquitted. The supple flexibility of Cicero’s arguments is immensely impressive, and so is the sense that the jury—albeit a selective one, of high-ranking Romans—will really listen to the arguments as arguments, and that the still animating republican idea of the rule of law, rather than the diktat of the emperor, genuinely matters to the outcome. But the aftermath is blurred. Capital crimes entail execution or exile, presumably, but the notion of state retribution seems absent from the discourse of individual defense. (Cicero himself, of course, eventually ended up executed, headless and handless, a victim of the new imperial ideal of justice.)

For all the resemblances between the ancient incarceration system and our own, the differences are real. Though we still see the same disparity between the noble public architecture of courts and the degraded architecture of prisons, there was nothing in antiquity close to our bureaucratic machinery for portioning out time behind bars, with its elaborate accessories—parole boards, probation hearings, sentencing guidelines. Foucault’s point was, in retrospect, more illustrative than strictly argumentative: the modern prison was a Black Mass parody of other institutions of modernity—the factory, the office, the psychiatric hospital—where people are processed and sent on their way, reduced to abstract entries in a ledger. That some partial precedent for this practice might be found, if one looks hard enough, doesn’t invalidate the general truth of the view—any more than the existence of medieval European inns offering food for money disproves the fact that the modern restaurant is specifically an invention of post-revolutionary France. Nothing under the sun is ever wholly new—but not everything is as old as time, either.

And yet the odd effect of Larsen and Letteney’s study is to make the continuities more vivid to us than the breaks. The empathetic likeness is greater than the epistemic difference. The sum effect of their book is not so much argumentative as it is piteous. We are left with an image of countless forgotten souls, locked away in dark, underground chambers: some condemned to wait for years without hope of release, others all too aware that they might one day be thrown to the lions or leopards. (Roman mosaics still survive that show leopards leaping at prisoners’ faces—scenes at once horrifying and, by the strange logic of history, the remote source of a contemporary political meme.) Some prisoners were doubtless guilty of some offense; others were simply unlucky in birth or circumstance. What persists is a quiet, bitter awareness of lives long ago consigned to suffering and despair. The feeling, inescapably, is not so different from what we experience today, seeing the images from El Salvador’s CECOT mega-prison: rows of men, heads shaved, stripped of identity, packed into cells in a choreography of human pain which has scarcely changed across the millennia.

Suffering and cruelty, after all, are constants—remarkably consistent in their distribution throughout time. It is a familiar mistake to read Foucault through a Marxist lens, as if mass incarceration could be explained by capitalism. Doing so misses his deeper, Nietzschean point: if it isn’t capitalism, it will be something else. For Foucault, cruelty is the substrate of reality, the sediment that lies beneath every system we devise.

Even against that darker kind of universalism, however, some light manages to break through. What lingers with us after reading this book is not so much the sense of an abstract argument won or lost as a helpless awareness of the endless, needless suffering of humanity. Although the ancient world had little resembling a modern prison-reform movement, it was not without moments of indignation which still have the power to move us. Christians, perhaps because they often came from the lower strata most at risk, formed support societies for the imprisoned. Among educated pagans, there were regular, if often ineffectual, appeals to humanitas in the treatment of the oppressed.

Humanitas, as Latinists remind us, is a complex and now contested word: it refers both to a chosen curriculum and to an imperative toward compassion—to artistic cultivation as well as to altruism. Seneca’s and Cicero’s invocations of humanitas were as double-edged as our own talk of the humanities, pointing at once to a body of knowledge and to a moral choice that learning might inspire. The practice of cruelty was all too real, yet so was the idea that humanity entailed a genuine feeling for the helpless. It’s what Seneca meant when he wrote that we give not to man but to humanity. Not just for the people we know but out of a shared feeling for humanity itself.

If we accept a vision of history as a sequence of sealed epistemes—each age defined by its own system of cruelties, each as senseless as the last, with “humanism” reduced to a polite fiction—then the past loses its moral urgency. The history of imprisonment becomes a catalogue of absurdities, to be met with dulled resignation. Even our efforts at reform begin to feel like the latest round in an unwinnable, ageless struggle with power.

It need not be so. The dialogues of the dead are not dialogues of the deaf. The conversation between antiquity and modernity, this new study implicitly argues, is real and constructive. We feel for the victims of both times. For that matter, it’s why poor, exiled Ovid and cautious, persecuted Shakespeare speak so happily across more than a thousand years, why Shakespeare’s poems so closely mirror the Roman poet’s: they are speaking the same language, about the same desires and the same sufferings of the body and the heart. The idea of a common humanity, in this very stakesy view, is not an invention that separates us from the ancients but an inheritance that connects us to them. It’s what makes the dialogue of the dead a conversation among the living. ♦



“Almost Home,” by Adrian Matejka

2025-12-08 19:06:03

2025-12-08T11:00:00.000Z

We know some things, man, about some
things, Bob Kaufman said, strutting down
another San Francisco street on his way
from there to whatever’s here. His pockets
were turned out to their linty parts
like a magician’s mid-trick. He had a dull
pencil tucked between his ear
& his preternatural Afro. I followed,
up roller-coaster hills, past misbegotten
alley kisses, hummingbirds everywhere
hitchhike-thumbing California’s daylight.
Bob Kaufman loved San Francisco’s
gentle malaise, long views of bay
& insistent bridge, the ocean right after.
I’m from Indiana, where dirt roads
lead to other dirt roads that always
lead to fields of blondly tasselled stalks
wafted by local infidelities. When
the wind kicks up, crops stammer secrets
recklessly as the gnats cloud in buggy
doubts above those lazy farmers in repose.
Just like the poets in San Francisco—
chez lounging-it in silk kimonos
for their gorgeous, sun-slicked photos.
Everyone stays skyward out here.
Just then, Bob Kaufman turned
a corner in his own quick reverie
& started up & down the coronary hills
of a city everyone talks about but nobody
can afford to love. Not like my home town
of Indianapolis, where four skyscrapers
stand affordably in the center of your wallet’s
imagination. They subsidize everybody’s
big ideas while the penthouse couple
fishes for a third for their kinky party.
There’s even a cuck chair in their bedroom
where the husband watches his wife
being ravished. Indy can be just as fantastic
& horny as San Francisco or Paris at times.
For a time, Bob Kaufman was the most
famous poet in France—bigger than Verlaine
or the pirate Rimbaud. But in San Francisco,
during his ten years of silence,
he was wrong-eyed & woebegone.
He stayed silent & alone as if not naming
the words ricocheting in his ears could
sustain him while passersby side-eyed
him up & down—his hobo couture, street
sleeping, all those paper-bag manifestos.

This is drawn from “Be Easy: New and Selected Poems.”

Letters from Our Readers

2025-12-08 19:06:03

2025-12-08T11:00:00.000Z

Foundations

Adam Gopnik is right that Trump’s demolition of Roosevelt’s East Wing violates the democratic process (Comment, November 3rd). But the White House building itself is not exactly a paragon of democracy. Gopnik’s piece sent me back to John Ruskin, whom he cites as “the greatest of architectural critics.” In “The Stones of Venice,” Ruskin insists that buildings record not just the ideals of those who commissioned them but also the conditions of those who built them. The East Wing was grafted onto an original structure that was built in part by enslaved people. Its neoclassical form proclaimed republican ideals; its production betrayed them. Trump’s wrecking ball is crude, but the gap between democratic symbolism and democratic practice is not new.

Dylan Mulvaney
Brooklyn, N.Y.

Better Men

As a feminist, a therapist, and a mother of twin teen-age boys, I was eager—but ultimately disappointed—to read Jessica Winter’s piece on the so-called crisis facing men (The Weekend Essay, November 9th). Her essay elided something crucial: if feminism does not expand its concern to include the well-being of men, it risks further deepening the backlash against women’s gains which is already roiling our politics.

Patriarchal masculinity isolates men emotionally and leaves them relationally insecure. The very tools that they need to mature—emotional literacy, empathy, connection—are forfeited in exchange for a ticket to “manhood.” Without these tools, boys and men turn their pain outward, kicking the proverbial dog. We see what that looks like in the news every day.

We need a healthier and more secure model of masculinity. Today’s feminism seems to want this model to be genderless. (For example, Winter describes a male ideal evoked in the book she reviews as “blessedly gender-free.”) We should not proudly celebrate women’s empowerment at the same time that we advocate for boys and men to disavow masculinity; feminism cannot depend on the erasure of male identity. If we don’t help to articulate new, healthier visions of masculinity, then reactionary movements will do it for us. They already are.

Karin Swann-Rubenstein
Santa Rosa, Calif.

A Language Lesson

I was delighted by Jill Lepore’s article about attempts to find historical precedents for Donald Trump and for the “furor, disarray, and murderous violence” of our political era (“American Frequencies,” November 3rd). I especially appreciated that Lepore described Trump as “the world’s most outspoken troll.” Nowadays, commentators frequently introduce Trump by describing him as a “felon” or a “convicted criminal.”

In the United States, there are about twenty-four million people who have been convicted of felony offenses. Not all of their convictions were the result of fair processes. As criminal-justice advocates point out, all too often our system extracts guilty pleas from people who may stand a chance of success at trial but are intimidated by the prospect of mandatory minimum sentences. (There are also other reasons that we may not believe a conviction to be fair, such as the use by police of methods that should qualify as entrapment.) Words like “felon” and “convict” are often used, as in reference to Trump, to signal that someone has inherently low moral worth. This can contribute to the punishing of people who have already been subject to injustices, and to a stigma that falls especially heavily on those who lack Trump’s money and power.

George Z. Banks
San Leandro, Calif.

Letters should be sent with the writer’s name, address, and daytime phone number via e-mail to [email protected]. Letters may be edited for length and clarity, and may be published in any medium. We regret that owing to the volume of correspondence we cannot reply to every letter.

A New Afghan Bakery, in New York’s Golden Age of Bread

2025-12-08 19:06:03

2025-12-08T11:00:00.000Z

The other day, while shopping for dried figs and pink, plum-soaked sesame seeds at the East Village spice store SOS Chefs, I asked the baker and cookbook author Bryan Ford where in the city he’d go for a baguette or a croissant. “I wouldn’t!” Ford, who is thirty-six, barrel-chested, and bearded, with a propensity for four-letter words, said, laughing. “That’s just not what I crave.” Born in the Bronx and raised in New Orleans, Ford specializes in breads that can be harder to find in New York: sourdough pan de coco (soft, sweet dinner rolls made with coconut milk, a staple in his parents’ native Honduras); conchas and other Mexican pan dulce; pan chapla, an anise-scented Peruvian loaf that is leavened with chicha de jora, a fermented corn beverage. I first met him in 2023, when he served me a phenomenal alfajor—a sandwich cookie made with shortbread and dulce de leche—at the Family Reunion, the chef Kwame Onwuachi’s annual food festival; for a while, he baked bread for Tatiana, Onwuachi’s acclaimed restaurant at Lincoln Center. Last year, Ford published “Pan y Dulce,” a follow-up to his first cookbook, “New World Sourdough” (2020). Both books are part of his mission to “decolonize the baking world,” as he sometimes puts it, by showcasing the breadth and complexity of Latin American and Caribbean baking.

Also last year, Ford and his wife, Bridget Kenna—whom he met when she produced his first TV show, “The Artisan’s Kitchen”—left New York for Florida. They were preparing for the arrival of their first child, and Ford had previously lived in Miami, where he baked at a beloved local shop called El Bagel and sold jalá (also known as challah) on the side. So I was surprised when Ford called, over the summer, to tell me that he and Kenna were returning to the city, and that he’d be opening a bakery in Brooklyn Heights. I was even more surprised when he told me that it would be an Afghan bakery, called Diljān.

New York is in a golden age of baked goods. A decade ago, it was a cliché for New Yorkers to visit Paris and come back yearning for that city’s corner boulangeries, which casually sold baguettes that were leagues beyond anything you’d find in the boroughs. Today, even if New York hasn’t matched Paris’s density of excellent options, it has seen a flourishing of superlative baking. In the early twenty-tens, Brooklyn bakeries such as She Wolf and Bien Cuit inaugurated a wave of prestige bread, proffering expertly crafted sourdough loaves. During the pandemic, a number of out-of-work professional bakers started selling bread and pastries out of their home kitchens; more than one eventually turned their quarantine hustle into a brick-and-mortar business. Now a town that used to apologize for its croissants boasts hours-long lines for them: both the West Village and Brooklyn Heights locations of L’Appartement 4F, a game-changing French bakery, are consistently mobbed with people seeking pâtisserie, baguettes, and fifty-dollar boxes of breakfast cereal made of tiny, hand-rolled croissants.

As the city’s bakeries have grown increasingly culturally specific, representing far-flung cuisines and styles—see Librae, in the East Village, which deploys Danish techniques and Middle Eastern ingredients like za’atar and black lime—they have also leaned into the culinary identity of New York. Radio Bakery, a spinoff of a Ridgewood restaurant called Rolo’s, sells bacon-egg-and-cheese focaccia by the slice; Elbow Bread, inspired by the Jewish history of the Lower East Side, offers a challah croissant and a buckwheat latte.

Perhaps none is as specific as Diljān. Ford’s partners in the business are Ali Zaman and Mohamed Ghiasi, a pair of Afghan American restaurateurs. Zaman, who is thirty, and Ghiasi, who is twenty-eight, went to the same high school in Queens, as did their fathers, who are veterans of the local restaurant industry. In 2021, the younger Zaman and Ghiasi opened Little Flower, a halal coffee shop in Astoria, which became a beloved haunt of Mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani, who also frequents Zaman’s father’s restaurant, Sami’s Kabab House. Ford, who lived in Astoria, was a regular at Little Flower, too, and Zaman and Ghiasi enlisted him to revamp the café’s pastry menu, devising items such as a jalapeño-cheddar tart with halal beef bacon. When the pair decided to open Diljān, where they planned to focus on naan-e panjayi—the chewy, yeasty Afghan flatbread that they’d grown up eating—Ford was their first call.

Diljān, on Hicks Street, is not far from the formidable queues of L’Appartement 4F, but it’s even closer to a stretch of Atlantic Avenue where Lebanese and Syrian immigrants flocked in the middle of the twentieth century, after the decline of Manhattan’s Little Syria. The street is dotted with time-tested Middle Eastern businesses, including the spare but inviting Yemen Café, with its steaming platters of slow-roasted lamb and self-serve dispenser of sweet milky tea, and the grocery store Sahadi’s, which still uses take-a-number deli tickets to fill orders for dried fruit and nuts by the pound.

Zaman and Ghiasi—a former theatre actor and a real-estate developer, respectively—have a talent for riffing on classic New York tropes. After Little Flower, they opened a halal fast-food counter called Blue Hour inside a gas station in Bushwick; the interior of Diljān, with its crimson tiles and stainless-steel counter, is meant to evoke both the Afghan flag and the sidewalk coffee carts that their fathers used to operate. “I think people just think Afghan food is, like, kabab, and it’s way more than that,” Zaman told me. Standing behind the counter, Ford handed me a slab of puffy, finger-pocked golden bread, its shiny surface flecked with sesame and nigella seeds, to be eaten with a pair of cream-cheese dips. One was speckled with chopped beef bacon and scallion. The other was blended with sour-cherry jam, inspired by a simple breakfast of Zaman and Ghiasi’s childhoods. (Their parents would substitute Philadelphia for the clotted cream they might have had in Afghanistan.)

In Afghan cuisine, naan-e panjayi is ubiquitous, as likely to appear in a breakfast spread as it is to be served with stews and roasts at dinner. Before signing on to Diljān, Ford had never made it. He started by researching what kind of wheat grows in Afghanistan. From American mills, Ford sourced flours stone-ground from varietals similar to those most commonly found in Afghanistan and began experimenting, vetting each iteration of the bread with Zaman, Ghiasi, and their families. Zaman and Ghiasi gave notes on how wheaty they wanted it to taste (very); Sami, Zaman’s father, would tell Ford if it was too thick or too salty. The rows of dimples, Ford told me, are supposed to be as straight as arrows. “I’m still working on that,” he added.

The dimples, and the bread’s oblong shape, give it a passing resemblance to focaccia, though Ford seemed to find the comparison reductive. “It might remind me of a focaccia because I learned how to make focaccia first, but that’s just part of the system we’re trying to break, right?” he said. “There are so many Italian and French bakeries because that’s the standard, but I think there should be more people being immersed in this kind of baking.” Ford hopes to distinguish Diljān by prioritizing tradition over hype. “We won’t be selling anything that we call a croissant,” he said, though he acknowledged that “any bakery that’s doing well” is selling pâtisserie. “People just love that shit,” he continued. “So what do we do? We use Afghan flavors. We didn’t want to do a pistachio-rose”—a Middle Eastern combination that has already become a cliché of trendy pastry. “It has to be deeper,” he said, assessing a tray of laminated confections. One, shaped in a more defined crescent than that of a typical croissant, curved like the emblem of the Ottoman Empire; Ford piped it full of the pale-yellow pastry cream that gave it its name, the Saffron Shah. From a small tray of sheer pira—Afghan milk fudge, made with cardamom and orange-blossom water—he used a cookie cutter to extract glossy circles to fit into a Danish-like pastry, between layers of a vanilla pastry cream and diplomat cream. The texture of the finished product was delightfully riotous, shards of crisp golden crumb collapsing into the pleasingly claggy fudge and luscious custard.

Using a smaller, circular version of the naan-e panjayi, Ford began to assemble a matryoshka doll of carbs, stuffing the bread with a Jamaican-style patty that was in turn stuffed with a spiced potato mixture typically found inside bolani (a deep-fried Afghan flatbread), plus spoonfuls of green chutney and white sauce. It was a clever homage to the iconic beef-patty-on-coco-bread sandwich, popular in the Caribbean neighborhoods of the North Bronx, and beloved by all three Diljān co-founders. “It’s a New York staple!” Ghiasi said proudly. Zaman observed that their partnership felt natural in part because Afghan cuisine is itself a fusion. “It’s the melting pot of Asia, Central Asia,” Zaman said. “We have all these different influences: India, China, the Soviet Union, Iran.” New York was an obvious counterpart. “My dad loves conchas. My dad fucking loves bagels,” Zaman said, recalling his father’s coffee-cart days. “He was selling bagels and cream cheese. Cinnamon-raisin was his shit.”

Zaman and Ghiasi have hopes of greatly expanding their business; talking to them reminded me of the short-lived HBO comedy “How to Make It in America,” about a pair of ballsy young guys hustling to break into the fashion industry. But their ambition is imbued with an endearing vulnerability. “A big thing that I always talk about, just in my own life, is being an Afghan New Yorker,” Zaman told me. “You’re a kid, 9/11 happens, and you’re both sides of your identity. I’m Afghan and now there’s war with Afghanistan, but I’m also a New Yorker, and this tragedy happened. Growing up, you feel a little embarrassed that you’re Muslim. And now, I keep joking, it’s Zohran’s New York, it’s cool to be Muslim again. It’s, like, the coolest thing.” ♦

Konrad Kay and Mickey Down, the Finance Bros Behind HBO’s “Industry”

2025-12-08 19:06:03

2025-12-08T11:00:00.000Z

Clwb Ifor Bach, a night club in Cardiff, the capital of Wales, is the kind of venue whose sticky floors hold generational memories of first intoxications. One evening in July, about a hundred young people lined up outside—girls in crop tops and short skirts, boys in baggy pants and tees. Once admitted, they gathered in knots on the dance floor, holding drinks in plastic cups. This was not a typical night out, though: the assembled had responded to a casting call and were about to be extras in a charged scene for Season 4 of “Industry,” the HBO drama about the world of finance and associated realms of power.

A stage beside the dance floor had been curtained off. There, Mickey Down and Konrad Kay, the two Brits who created the show, huddled with a small team around several monitors, assessing the scene as it would appear onscreen. Down, thirty-six, and Kay, thirty-seven, had written the episode and were also directing it. They have been close friends since meeting as undergraduates at Oxford University, and they conceived of “Industry” a decade ago, not long after spending a short time working at different banks in the City of London. The début episode, which aired in 2020, deftly established the show’s premise: a feral group of young people, granted more money than they have ever known and a modicum of adult power, are let loose in an environment in which amorality is not just excused but rewarded. The setting is Pierpoint & Co., a fictional bank that has a training program for recent college graduates. As at actual élite institutions, Pierpoint’s program is fiercely competitive, with only some of the annual intake advancing to permanent positions. The initial protagonists of “Industry”—Yasmin Kara-Hanani, an Anglo-Lebanese publishing heiress; Robert Spearing, a white working-class publican’s son; Gus Sackey, the Eton- and Oxford-educated offspring of a Ghanaian Ambassador; and Harper Stern, a Black American striver with a pierced nose and a dodgy college transcript—enter the competition with chilly gusto, sniffing one another out for drugs or transactional sex, and sometimes cutting one another off at the knees professionally.

At the club, Tiësto’s remix of Delerium’s trance anthem “Silence” played on the sound system while the extras danced under swirling spotlights. In the center of the crowd were Marisa Abela, who plays Yasmin, and Myha’la, the mononymous actor who plays Harper. In the show’s first three seasons, the relationship between the two characters is by turns rivalrous, affectionate, hostile, conspiratorial, and codependent. Earlier that day, Down had described this dyad as “the beating heart of the show.” Kay had chimed in, “It’s the true romantic arc of the four seasons.” Over throbbing synths, the actors shouted declarations into each other’s ears—and additionally communicated with eyes and hands—while a cameraman circled them with a Steadicam. Kay squatted by a monitor, bobbing his head to the beat.

For the next take, the cameraman got very close to the two principals, who seized the opportunity to switch from high heels to Uggs. After several takes, the actors joined Down and Kay at the monitor, to see what had been captured. Both women are nearly thirty, and clearly belonged to a different generation than that of the college-aged kids who had been swaying around them. Abela smiled with satisfaction at the scene, which conjured the characters’ youthful openness to experience at the beginning of the series. “It’s so Season 1, isn’t it?” she said. At one point, Kay turned to me, looking elated and emotional. He said, “I just realized this is an elegy for mine and Mickey’s youth. It just dawned on me—we don’t do this kind of thing anymore.”

Man entering saloon.
“Any of you boys ever walk into a saloon and forget what you came in for?”
Cartoon by Frank Cotham

This reminder of where Yasmin and Harper started underlines the extraordinary distances they’ve travelled in four seasons. Yasmin has chosen the questionable protection offered by marriage to Sir Henry Muck (Kit Harington), the heir to an ancient estate. Harper, with a ruthlessness that has verged on the sociopathic, has maneuvered herself from outsider status to a position of wealth and power. The show, which originally confined itself to the claustrophobic ecosystem of the trading floor, has expanded to include the grubby workings of British media and politics, and to show the intersection of the country’s landed aristocracy with other, newer forms of class aggrandizement. “Yasmin and Harper are at the center of geopolitical intrigue this season in a way that would seem crazy if you had only watched Season 1,” Down told me.

The same might be said of the characters’ creators, who’d never made a show before, and who were barely mentioned in reviews when Season 1 aired. Most assessments focussed on the fact that Lena Dunham had directed the pilot, in her first such outing since “Girls.” Even with that pedigree, initial ratings were dismal. “It was the second-least-watched show on HBO of all time,” Kay told me, adding that just seventy thousand households viewed the program live when it first aired. “That’s fewer than go to watch Barcelona in the stadium,” he noted, with the pride of the underestimated. “Industry” is a co-production with the BBC in the U.K., where I was among the early adopters, having discovered it during a grim period of pandemic lockdown. The show offered a curdled stand-in for socializing. I watched it on dark, boring afternoons while pedalling furiously on my hateful exercise bike, weirdly energized by the show’s dense flurry of financial jargon and magnetically appalled by its commitment to joyless sex scenes. Season 1 arguably reached its stylistic apogee in the sixth episode, when, during Pierpoint’s in-office holiday party, Yasmin led Robert into a bathroom and put her hand down his pants, then commanded him to masturbate in front of the mirror and lick his semen from his fingers.

Despite its low viewership, the show was renewed, in part because it had been cheap to produce compared with such HBO shows as “Succession” and “White Lotus.” The network could afford to let this little experiment run. The young actors of “Industry” were gifted unknowns, and production costs in Wales, where the show is shot, are considerably lower than in London or New York, let alone Koh Samui. Season 2, which aired in 2022, enlarged the show’s world while also rooting it in a pointedly contemporary moment: Harper became professionally embroiled with Jesse Bloom, an American hedge funder (played by a beguiling Jay Duplass) who, much like the real-life financier Bill Ackman, made billions of dollars by speculating on the pandemic. By the time Season 3 aired, buzz had grown, and the show was moved to the prestigious Sunday-night slot formerly occupied by “Succession.” Viewership averaged 1.6 million per episode—not a “Game of Thrones”-level hit, though unquestionably a niche success. By that point, Down and Kay had asserted decisive ownership over their project. Last year, they signed a three-year exclusive deal, worth many millions of dollars, with HBO, in which they agreed to work on “Industry” until 2027. In addition to writing and producing the show, they have co-directed half of the eight episodes in the forthcoming season, which begins airing in January.

Two people in an office looking at each other
In “Industry,” the protagonists are junior financiers. Harry Lawtey, left, plays Robert Spearing, a white working-class publican’s son; Marisa Abela, right, plays Yasmin Kara-Hanani, an Anglo-Lebanese publishing heiress.Photograph by Amanda Searle / HBO

Down and Kay have enjoyed their hard-won prosperity as much as their characters have. They’ve been photographed on red carpets at premières and openings, and they have appeared on the “Throwing Fits” fashion podcast to talk about their favorite designers. (Down dilated on his partiality for pleated pants by Issey Miyake.) Both are handsome and stylish and could withstand the filter of a dating app that eliminates profiles of men under six feet tall. Down, in particular, is given to posting on Instagram aspects of the high life—Ibiza, Gstaad, yachts—that aren’t traditionally enjoyed by many television writers. To fellow-Brits, Down and Kay’s unabashed appetite for success can look like an American-style trait, simultaneously attractive and suspect. Russell T. Davies, the Welsh writer and producer who has been the showrunner for “Doctor Who” and the creator of other popular programs, including “It’s a Sin,” told me that he was charmed by Down and Kay’s revelry in their triumph, despite being more of a rumpled-sweater guy himself. “I love the fact that Mickey and Konrad are so glamorous,” he said. “I don’t approve of a world in which actors and directors become superstars but writers never do.”

More than one friend or acquaintance of the pair told me it was important to understand that “Industry” is not a satire, and that the characters’ ambition—and their pleasure in material wealth—is shared by the show’s creators, even if Down and Kay no longer have the resilience for the hard-driving social life depicted on the show. Both have settled into relationships: Down is married to Daisy Mostyn Down, a producer of television commercials; they have two small children and are expecting a third. Kay lives with his girlfriend, Elle Delmonte, a booker for a child-modelling agency. The duo’s renunciation has its limits, though. After our first meeting, Kay texted me his hangover regimen, which consists of capsules of N-acetyl cysteine, alpha-lipoic acid, and a supplement called Hangheal Liver Detox. “They are always up for a party,” Ollie White, the music supervisor for “Industry,” told me. He added that the three of them had imminent plans for a visit to Berlin, to see the composer Nathan Micay—who is responsible for the show’s jittery soundtrack—perform at Berghain, the notoriously sybaritic club. The trip sounded very Season 2: in one episode, Harper and Yasmin went on a psychedelics-fuelled bender in the German city.

Down and Kay’s recreational activities have evolved in ways that mirror the show’s expanded social compass. Earlier this fall, they told me that they were heading for a guys’ weekend at Gleneagles, the famous resort hotel in Scotland. When I asked if they’d be playing golf—the property has three courses—they demurred. “We’re just going to have a slap-up weekend,” Down said. “Some good dinners,” Kay added. A few weeks later, Down’s Instagram filled in some details. He posted images of Kay and him dressed in plaid plus-fours, Barbour jackets, and flat tweed caps, each posing with a smile on his face and a shotgun under an arm.

There is a rich history of movies set in the world of finance, from “Wall Street” to “The Big Short.” On TV, “Billions” chronicled the depredations of hedge funders for seven lurid seasons. In those depictions, however, the vantage point was from the top down; their central characters were those with the most money. The originality of “Industry” lay in the inversion of this perspective: its protagonists were the junior employees, even if they were nonetheless in a position to lose hundreds of thousands of pounds in a millisecond, either by mistake or misjudgment. At the outset, Down and Kay were committed to a vérité version of the trading floor, including what to many viewers was an utterly opaque argot. But the show unambiguously captures the hierarchies and the brutalities that exist in many demanding work environments. You don’t need to have a job in finance to feel the humiliation of being made to do a coffee run, or to bristle at gibes about a trainee’s off-the-rack suit.

Viewers of “Industry” hoping for a fresh crop of callow, horny grads this season will be confronted, instead, with a story that is tonally darker and structurally denser than anything that came before. “With Season 3, we realized that the most narratively interesting and exciting thing would be to kill the precinct of the show,” Kay told me. Pierpoint, the fictional bank, was sold off and its trading floor shut down—forcing its denizens into new storytelling realms. An important inspiration for Season 4 was the 2007 movie “Michael Clayton,” in which George Clooney plays a lawyer who discovers corporate wrongdoing at his firm. The challenge, Kay said, was “Can we effectively tell a story over eight hours that has the narrative propulsion of a great conspiracy thriller?”

The godmother of “Industry” is Jane Tranter, a powerful executive producer who has worked in both the U.K. and Hollywood. In the early twenty-tens, Tranter had the idea of making a show about newcomers to the City of London. “I could not work out why young people, after the whole credit crunch and everything that had happened with the banks, were still flocking in their hordes to go and work in the City,” she told me. “Wasn’t this the generation that was meant to be saving the world from the atrocious mistakes of my generation?” (One bleak data point in Tranter’s research file was the death of a young intern, in 2013, who worked at a bank in London; he suffered a seizure after working three nights in a row without sleep. In the pilot of “Industry,” a trainee expires under similar circumstances.) Tranter secured a modest budget from HBO to explore the idea, with the directive, she told me, to “just make it young and sexy somehow.” By chance, a colleague had met Down and Kay while discussing a different project, a psychological thriller, and steered them to Tranter. “They were so bright and so personable, and they had exactly what you want when you are tackling something like this,” Tranter told me. “They both had authenticity, and they had objectivity and clarity. But they also had scores to settle.”

Two elves trying to stop Santa from clicking spam on his computer.
Cartoon by Roz Chast

On set, the pair work together seamlessly—so much so that the cast and crew refer to them by the moniker M.K. The actor Ken Leung, who plays Eric Tao, a veteran trader, told me, “I almost never think of one without the other. You wouldn’t want to talk to one about something without the other knowing. It would feel wrong.” (One instance of score-settling: a scene in which Eric undresses in front of underlings is based on the behavior of a former senior colleague of Kay’s, who would summon him to his office on a Friday afternoon to talk about the week’s business, all the while stripping down to his underwear before putting on his weekend clothes.) When Down and Kay do interviews together, they regularly finish each other’s sentences. Tranter told me, “I often think, if they both get on their phones during a meeting, or on set, that they are texting each other.”

The two men’s temperaments are very different. Down overflows with ebullient confidence, whereas Kay is more anxious and cerebral. Myha’la told me, “Mickey feels very like a superstar—kind of flashy, like an old-school director. I know for a fact that he really badly wants to be on the Director Fits Instagram account, where they say, ‘Look at this great director, and look at his awesome outfit.’ And then, with Konrad, I feel like I have seen his heart blossom in real time this season. He gets such a twinkle in his eye, and a chaotic excitement, when he is, like, ‘Let’s try this.’ ” She went on, “They’re no longer holding on to anything so tightly, and they are really eager to let us play with them, because of the trust that’s been built.” Their own ambitions are unabashedly large. “I like reading biographies of John Boorman and David Lean and all these great directors,” Kay told me. “Sometimes I think I won’t be satisfied until I can see Mickey on a hilltop overseeing, like, fifteen hundred extras, through a megaphone, directing a big, two-and-a-half-hour-long period epic.” He continued, “It’s, like, someone is detonating something, and Mickey is saying, ‘We missed that by thirty seconds,’ and the whole shot costs another hundred and twenty grand. That excites me.”

Down and Kay met in 2007. Down had just arrived at Oxford for his first year, and Kay was a second-year student. Down recalled that Kay was playing foosball: “I sidled up to him, and he said, ‘Oh, you’re new—you’re going to fucking hate it here.’ ” They were both members of Regent’s Park College, which enrolls a high proportion of divinity students. Both had been bounced there after being rejected by older and more prestigious Oxford colleges. Kay blew his interview at his first choice by holding forth about Homeric allusions in “Ulysses,” despite never having read the book. “I fucked up so badly I cried afterward,” he told me. Both arrived at Oxford with the insouciance of privilege, having been privately educated at exclusive institutions, Down at Charterhouse School (Thackeray, Vaughan Williams) and Kay at King’s College School, Wimbledon (Dante Gabriel Rossetti, Walter Sickert). Down studied theology; he had applied for the subject because he knew it was statistically much easier to get into Oxford as a theologian than as a historian, his true interest. (Robert Spearing has leveraged a similar application tactic in “Industry.”) Kay studied English literature, favoring modules on sparse modernist poetry to ones on lengthy Victorian novels. Both did the minimum of academic work. Down tried his hand at acting, without great success. “One play was just a disaster—it was Luigi Pirandello’s ‘Six Characters in Search of an Author,’ and on the first night I got the cue wrong, and we skipped about forty minutes of the play,” he told me. Mostly, the two went out.

Entering the television or film industry at the bottom rung, or trying to launch a career as a writer, wasn’t a realistic proposition for either man upon graduation. Down’s parents, who are partners in their own architectural practice, in North London, urged him to enter a steady profession such as the law. He had done a summer internship at the Home Office, and he was invited to apply for the intelligence services. Down, whose mother is Ghanaian and whose father is white British, said, “There was a diversity ‘fast stream.’ I got to the meeting and we were all Black or brown people. I thought, That’s interesting.” But he didn’t get the job. Not knowing what else to do, he successfully applied for a summer internship at Morgan Stanley, and after it ended he went to Rothschild. Élite financial institutions in the U.K. recruit from half a dozen similarly élite universities and, traditionally, have accepted a significant number of humanities grads, many of whom have never taken an economics class. Of course, not all jobs in finance require math skills: Anraj Rayat, a close friend of Kay’s, who works as a sales trader at Barclays and was an inspiration for the confrontational, scabrous character of Rishi Ramdani in “Industry,” told me, “There’s a job called prime brokerage, and I always say that their biggest skill set is asking clients ‘Red or white?’ and ‘Still or sparkling?,’ because that’s basically all you need to do.” Nevertheless, it was clear that there were other qualifications under consideration. Down said, “I didn’t get a single technical question at my interview—it was all questions about university, and literally talking about people that we both knew.”

Two people looking at each other in a mirror
In Season 2, Harper Stern, played by Myha’la, gets manipulated by Jesse Bloom, a rogue billionaire played by Jay Duplass.Photograph by Simon Ridgway / HBO

At Rothschild, Down was assigned to mergers and acquisitions. “The way the office was set up was that the analysts and interns were at one end of the office, and the managing directors were at the other,” he told me. Like the characters in Season 1 of the show, he worked long hours, getting home at 2 A.M. and then stressing over a mistake in a PowerPoint deck that had to be sent to a client in the morning. “I kind of saw the door as soon as I started,” he said. “I thought, I am not good at this, and it’s been really hard to be average at this, and I have to start thinking about other things I’d like to do.” He started writing scripts—like one of Pierpoint’s slightly older traders, who is roundly scorned when one is discovered on his desk—and within a year Down was out.

For Kay, the expectation had always been that he would join the banking industry; his mother, who emigrated from Poland during the country’s years of martial law, and his father, who had grown up in a working-class household in the North of England, had both worked in London at Merrill Lynch. (Kay’s father, Roger, acted as an informal consultant on the show’s early scripts.) “They told me, ‘You can do your writing on the side, but you have to go and get a practical job,’ ” Kay recalled. He didn’t resist the idea of becoming a financier. “In your early twenties, you don’t know who you are—you have no idea,” he said. “The idea that you could go into an institution and have a gym bag that sort of speaks for you, and you can put a tie on, and you can cosplay maturity, is super seductive.” Kay entered a trainee program at Morgan Stanley—he’d chatted to his interviewer about Oxford and about soccer—and enjoyed the social life that meeting with clients offered. (“When I was twenty-three, my body could take anything.”) But he quickly realized that he was not cut out for the job. “With numbers, I’m dyslexic,” he told me. “I can’t do basic arithmetic. I would be in these meetings where people would be talking about the P/E”—the price-to-earnings—“value of a stock. This is the most basic metric on which a stock is valued, and I could never get my head around it. I’d call a leading pension-fund manager, who had billions of dollars invested in Apple, and try to talk to him about something he’d known about for years. I was a sales guy who was supposed to make forty calls a day, and I was making four calls a month.” In Season 2 of “Industry,” this paralysis is assigned to Robert Spearing, who escapes from his rut via a toxic affair with a much older, and predatory, female client.

Kay’s view of banking quickly dimmed: “You could literally see your career progression—you could see the paunches get bigger and the hair recede in real time.” He found a niche writing a daily e-mail report in which he analyzed the performance of various companies. “I’d write about politics or film but, tangentially, about BMW stock,” he said. “I’d spend two hours a day doing that, and then my boss would see me hit Send, and then for eight hours I would do nothing.” He and Down traded e-mails about their respective workplaces, parodying the style of Bret Easton Ellis. (Sadly, these remain trapped on proprietary servers.) Kay moved back home, to South London, increasingly depressed about his situation. On Friday evenings, he met up with Rayat at a pub to drown his sorrows. “We used to drink these blood-orange cocktails—we called them ‘blood-orange snarlers,’ ” Rayat recalled. “We used to say, at 6 a.m. on Friday morning, ‘What time’s your first blood-orange snarler?’ It was a race to see who could get to the pub first, and whoever was last would buy the drinks.” They would talk about their respective weeks at work, Rayat said, “and he would tell me how much he hated it.” Kay was grateful when he was fired, after two and a half years on the job: “My boss said, ‘You’re a great guy, I really like you, but you are the worst salesman I have ever met in my life.’ ”

Meanwhile, Down, who had also moved back in with his parents, had taken entry-level jobs in the entertainment industry, working for a talent agency and as an assistant to Sacha Baron Cohen. He’d also started making his own projects, including “Alexander the Great,” a series of mockumentary shorts indebted to the British version of “The Office.” Down starred as Michael Alexander, a clueless, Hermès-tie-flipping banker with a side gig making execrable hip-hop music. Michael says things like “Banking comes with a lot of trappings. It pays a lot of money, but the stress, the pressure, the constant stigma from every single person around you—is there even enough time to spend it? And to that I just say . . . ‘Yes, there is.’ ”

Groom making announcement about upcoming speeches at the wedding.
“To celebrate our love, please enjoy an hour of inside jokes from nonprofessional writers with zero public-speaking experience.”
Cartoon by Asher Perlman

Together, Down and Kay wrote a screenplay about the finance industry. Its title, “Not an Exit,” borrows the final words of Ellis’s “American Psycho,” which Down ironically calls “a guidebook for finance bros.” They couldn’t sell the movie, but after raising funds on Kickstarter they wrote and produced another feature, “Gregor,” about a young man adrift in London, which was also produced by Daisy Mostyn, then Down’s girlfriend. The film, in which Down acted, is mysteriously unavailable, though an online clip shows Down’s character wearing nothing but a loincloth, Burberry briefs, and manacles around his wrists, having been drafted into a perverse role-play scenario by a racist American woman who is masquerading as a champion of racial justice. “Today, she was in the bath, and I just read Malcolm X to her,” Down’s character says, adding with a sigh, “I’m actually half white as well.”

With “Gregor” as their calling card, Down and Kay sold about a dozen ideas for TV shows. “But selling a TV show in the U.K. is very different from in the U.S.,” Down explained. “When you go to the U.S. and say, ‘I sold a TV show,’ it sounds like you made hundreds of thousands of pounds. We sold our best idea for about five hundred pounds each. It seemed like a lot. It was December, and I remember thinking, I need money to buy Christmas presents.” (The idea, about a Black highwaywoman in eighteenth-century Britain—Down describes it as a mashup between Quentin Tarantino and “Barry Lyndon”—is still owned by Cinemax.) Not long thereafter, however, they began writing “Industry.”

When Down and Kay talk about their early efforts, they regularly reach for the cliché about building the plane while flying it: as they see it, Season 1 was under-plotted, offering a vibe rather than a narrative, while Season 2 overcompensated with an embarrassment of subplots—Harper’s attempts to track down her estranged brother, Yasmin’s psychosexual intrigue with her new boss in private wealth management, Celeste Paquet, and Robert’s teetering sobriety. In Season 3, the creators and the critics agreed, the show hit its stride, with a panorama that included a drowning off the coast of Majorca and a punchy climate conference in Switzerland. For Season 4, the Pierpoint trading-floor set has been replaced by one depicting the headquarters of Tender, a fintech startup led by Whitney Halberstram, an American played by Max Minghella.

The first time I visited Down and Kay in Cardiff, I was shown around the new set; it had walls lined with metal mesh, and at its center was a gladiatorial, glassed-in conference room that looked like the perfect environment for a C-suite cage fight. Another enormous studio was occupied by half a plane, at that moment neither being built nor flown. One afternoon, while I was on set, Down and Kay were directing an airborne showdown between Halberstram and Kit Harington’s Henry. Before the cameras rolled, Harington popped his head out of the back of the plane with a question about protocols around the use of iPhones by characters on the show. “How are Apple with the word ‘c-u-n-t’?” he asked. “Am I allowed to say that?” He and Minghella traded good-natured tales of their weekend activities. But once filming began they became spiky and competitive.

“In truth, we just add layers of complexity to everything until it becomes illegible,” Harington’s Henry said, with dawning insight.

“Welcome to finance, bro,” Minghella’s Halberstram shot back.

In September, I joined Down and Kay as they gave notes on the sound editing for the second episode of Season 4. This stand-alone episode focusses on the unravelling of Henry, who—reflecting Down and Kay’s commitment to hew closely to real-world events—wins a parliamentary seat in a by-election, only to lose it during the Labour Party’s landslide victory in the general election of July, 2024. The opening credits appear over closeups of Harington during the vote count, as he alternately grins and fights back tears. The episode assumes a familiarity with the technicalities of the British electoral system. (What, exactly, is a by-election?) It’s a far cry from HBO’s early mandate to make “Industry” young and sexy.

“We Trojan-horse whatever we want into the show,” Down said later, as the three of us sat down for lunch at a Cardiff steak house. Not that the episode had been sexless: Down had given a wry note to Neil Collymore, the series’ rerecording mixer, about the audio accompanying a grimly dispatched bathtub hand job. “I am very disappointed in you, Neil—there are no wanking noises,” Down had said. “I thought we’d at least hear the chopping under the water.” As we scanned the menu, he explained, “Usually, Neil adds in these pretty aggressive sex noises. In the last episode, there was a sex scene, and it sounded like someone doing that”—Down mimed a vigorous plunging action—“with mac and cheese.” He ordered beef tartare and a green salad.

Whereas the early seasons of “Industry” challenged the audience’s knowledge of financial arcana, the show has become increasingly specialized about the intricacies and contradictions of the British class system. In the first episode of Season 3, Yasmin is summoned by a shirtless, sweaty Henry to a handball court designed for the playing of Eton fives, a game so exclusive that its courts can be found almost nowhere but in a smattering of Britain’s private clubs and schools (including Down’s alma mater). There are personal in-jokes, too: Otto Mostyn, a cold-blooded financier, shares a surname with Down’s in-laws. Down’s father-in-law, Sir Nicholas Mostyn, had a high-profile legal career, and his last name became a byword for a favorable settlement in a divorce case. (Former clients include Diana, Princess of Wales, and Paul McCartney.) “Industry” exposes the ways that generational wealth and inherited cultural capital shape the workings of power in Britain, revealing how an individual such as Henry can go from heading a catastrophically failing green-tech startup in Season 3 to, at the outset of Season 4, becoming a junior minister in government.

Man at a piano
Kit Harington plays Sir Henry Muck, an entitled aristocrat. Among the inspirations for Henry’s empty bluster was Boris Johnson, the former British Prime Minister.Photograph by Simon Ridgway / HBO

Kay said, of the character, “He’s been polished up to be a leader of men when he’s actually not got the intellectual capacity—which is the trick of private schooling in this country.” He went on, “It polishes up intellectual duds and tells them they deserve to inherit the world, and obviously some of them don’t.” Among the inspirations for Henry’s empty bluster was Boris Johnson, the former British Prime Minister, whose manifold flaws—Johnson was sacked from his graduate-trainee job, at the Times of London, for inventing a quote—would have quickly derailed anyone less advantaged. This kind of privilege, Kay went on, also bestows lessons in the tactical value of bullshittery: “That dissembling bluster that Johnson does is a brilliant rhetorical technique, because people think you’re charming, and you can change the subject. It’s a function of, like—and I’ve done this, and Mickey has, too—years of going to a tutorial at Oxford, and not doing any work, and just being able to extemporize. I think it teaches you that really, really well. And Henry’s brilliant at that—using the right hundred-dollar word there, and being slightly charming here, and a slight elision there. People go, ‘Oh, you must be smart, because I don’t understand what you said.’ ”

A cultural fascination with the upper classes cycles in and out of fashion in Britain, Down observed. “In the nineties, when I was at school, everyone was sort of shaving their accents down, and listening to rap, and pretending to be rude boys,” he said. “And then everyone got to university, and I honestly think it was part and parcel with the nascent Tory government, but suddenly at Oxford people were, like, ‘Oh, it’s O.K. to be posh again.’ ” Down, whose own accent is far more Brideshead than Brixton, said that, at least among the self-assured graduates from the world’s best schools who enter the world’s most remunerative professions, there exists an inherent sense of competition for its own sake, and a frustration when the path of ascent isn’t as clear as promised. “You hit a wall in your trajectory that your peers haven’t hit—it’s, like, you’ve gone to Oxford, and you’ve gone to McKinsey, and you’ve done a startup, and your peer is doing a startup that gets twenty million in seed funding, and you get fifteen. And you’re, like, ‘Actually, I don’t want to do a startup anymore. Maybe I’ll go into politics.’ And then, to be truly successful, you have to be Prime Minister.”

Showing how the dynamics of power and privilege intersect with race in Britain is also part of what makes “Industry” novel. Myha’la—who, like her character, had never visited the U.K. before arriving for work, to film Season 1—told me that she’d had to quiz Down and Kay about why Harper does not immediately bond with Gus Sackey, the Pierpoint colleague whose father is a Ghanaian diplomat. “In my world, if I see another person of color in the room, I’m, like, ‘O.K., clocked, we got each other,’ ” she told me. “It was not that way with his character at all—he had some kind of weird disdain for Harper.” Down remarked of Gus, “Because of where he has come from, he doesn’t see himself as a ‘Black man at Pierpoint.’ He’s coming to a place where he’s surrounded by people he already knows. He has the entitlement of education. He’s, like, ‘Don’t collectivize me. Don’t make me the same as you. We’re not the same just because we have the same skin color.’ ” Though Down does not share Gus’s right-wing politics, the character’s experience in some respects mirrors his own. “I don’t like to be collectivized, and I do think of myself as an individual,” he told me. “I haven’t had to think about race in the same way. It’s a function of my upbringing. I’ve been insulated by privilege my entire life.”

People on a TV set
Down and Kay not only write “Industry”; they also direct many of the episodes.Photograph by Simon Ridgway / HBO

Portraits of the British aristocracy have often been produced by its own members or by those socially adjacent to them. “Downton Abbey,” which precisely anatomized the landed élite at a moment of social transition, was created by Julian Fellowes, who was himself born into the British gentry. Authors from Evelyn Waugh and Nancy Mitford to Edward St. Aubyn have portrayed the ruling classes with the jaundiced eye of a skeptical insider. Joe Charlton, a playwright and a longtime friend of Down and Kay’s who also works on scripts for “Industry,” told me that the program’s perspective on class mirrors that of its creators. He said, “The show is about characters that are fascinated by the class system and climbing up it, and then feel kind of revulsed by where they find themselves.” That revulsion, though, is usually expressed tonally rather than verbally—in the loveless couplings, or in the cold white privacy of yet another bathroom stall. “Industry” celebrates the accomplishment of capitalist dominance while also provoking disgust at the emptiness of capitalism’s excesses. Being on the yacht feels like Heaven; being on the yacht feels like Hell.

One evening, I met Down and Kay for a drink at a London pub around the corner from Down’s house. They were both adrenalized: they’d been reviewing the final cut of the season finale before sending it to HBO. The first three seasons of the show formed a kind of trilogy; they see the fourth season as a reset. Having thrown themselves, post-banking, into the world of television, they said, they had not necessarily expected success on the level at which they have found it. At the same time, Kay said, “I knew that we had it in us, together, to make something good.”

“I never, ever had impostor syndrome in this industry,” Down added. Kay remarked that their creative partnership, as well as their nearly twenty-year friendship, has been strengthened by their willingness to be vulnerable with each other. “We’re super ambitious, and we drive each other’s ambition,” he said. “But what’s really nice is now, I think, in my mid-thirties, I can step back from whatever we do, and I can just feel a genuine sense of love for him, which is sort of totally divorced from our career relationship.” Down agreed, though with his characteristic restraint. “My softness is a bit more inside,” he admitted.

After an hour, Down had to return home to his family, but Kay was awaiting a friend, and we kept talking. He said that he has been influenced by the writings of the late cultural theorist Mark Fisher, whose book “Capitalist Realism,” from 2009, posited that the hegemony of capitalism has made it impossible to imagine a political or economic system outside of it. The observation that it is “easier to imagine an end to the world than it is to imagine an end to capitalism” did not originate with Fisher, but he did much to disseminate the idea. From Fisher, Kay said, he had learned that “any product of capitalism has to be, on some level, a celebration of it.” That was certainly true of “Industry.”

The show appears in one sense to be aspirational, Kay explained: “These people have money, there’s the sex and the drugs. But, if you get underneath that stuff, they are hyper-alienated—they are hyper-individualistic, they are all miserable, they are all contending with these huge traumas in their past. And the temporary salve of sex and drugs and money masks all those things. All the characters are, on some level, automatons.” He added, “For me, the power of the show is that everyone thinks they are soulless and dead-eyed, and they are, and they have chosen a business that is going to exacerbate that problem within themselves. And romance is at the edges of the show, and sometimes they can let it in and it can be transformative for them.” In Season 4, Kay went on, one of the main characters comes face to face with the reality that his miserable situation is the inevitable end point of a transactional approach to life. “For financial markets, that’s phenomenal—for a society, that is a disaster,” Kay said. “We have constructed a society where we have made financial markets and society into an analogous thing. And then people take the world of the trading floor out into their relationships, and I don’t know where that leaves them.”

Kay, who by then was finishing his second Guinness, gestured at my phone. “My screen time is eight hours a day, and anytime I feel anything—anxiety, feelings of self-worthlessness, does my girlfriend love me, why am I not a dad, I’m going to die, all the things I think when I have five minutes on my own—this thing denies you all that, in a way that is so pleasurable,” he said. “I’m, like, ‘Wow, this fucking jacket! It’s going to make me feel fucking amazing.’ The jacket comes, and I look good for a day, and then I start to feel that feeling again. The danger of this thing is it flattens the experience of the world. So I can go on Instagram and see some woman I’m not dating, and then I can go on Twitter and see some kid being beheaded in Gaza, and then I can look at the jacket—spending the exact same amount of time on each of them.” Kay had become impassioned in a way that his and Down’s characters only rarely allow themselves to be.

“And you wonder why people are fucking miserable!” he said. “You know, recently, I would prefer to be alone in my thoughts, thinking, I’m going to die. That is the better choice.” He rose from the table and, while I gathered my belongings to leave, greeted a young man who had just entered the pub. Kay wasn’t going to be alone with his thoughts just yet. “This is my friend Dan,” he told me. “He works at Goldman.” ♦

Briefly Noted Book Reviews

2025-12-08 19:06:03

2025-12-08T11:00:00.000Z
Cover of the book Peacemaker

Peacemaker, by Thant Myint-U (Norton). In 1961, U Thant, a soft-spoken Burmese diplomat, became the first non-European to head the United Nations. His decade as Secretary-General would be a time of emergencies. During the Cuban missile crisis, the United States and the Soviet Union came dangerously close to nuclear catastrophe; across Africa and Asia, post-colonial states plunged into bloodshed. This biography, written by Thant’s grandson, focusses on his tireless efforts to defuse the conflicts of his era—above all, America’s disastrous adventure in Vietnam. Thant’s frustrated attempts to end that war tarnished his reputation in Washington and, this book suggests, may have helped deprive him of his rightful place in history. Leading the U.N., Thant once remarked, was “the loneliest job in the world.”

Cover of the book The Running Ground

The Running Ground, by Nicholas Thompson (Random House). This affecting memoir is part ode to the pleasures of long-distance running, part study of a son’s relationship with his complicated father. For Thompson, a career editor who is now the C.E.O. of The Atlantic, running has provided many things—a sense of identity during an awkward adolescence, a reminder of his resilience following a cancer diagnosis, and a stage on which to prove himself, in middle age, as an élite athlete. It has also served as a way, he writes, to explore his origins: “Running connects me to my father; it reminds me of my father; and it gives me a way to avoid becoming my father.”


What We’re Reading

An illustrated GIF of three figures reading while walking.
Illustration by Ben Hickey

Discover notable new fiction, nonfiction, and poetry.


Book cover of Cursed Daughters

Cursed Daughters, by Oyinkan Braithwaite (Doubleday). Set in Lagos, this moody, engrossing novel braids together the stories of three women reared to believe that they are cursed because of a shared ancestor’s adultery. The novel opens with the suicide, by drowning, of one of the women, whose death is cast as the “inevitable consequence” of her forebear’s actions. Shortly after that woman’s funeral, her cousin gives birth to a daughter, who bears such a striking resemblance to the deceased that some in the family take her to be a reincarnation. As Braithwaite follows the protagonists’ attempts to avoid the fate of the generations of women who preceded them, she explores the possibility of personal freedom in a society that is still bound by tradition, prejudice, and superstition.

Book cover of Bog Queen

Bog Queen, by Anna North (Bloomsbury). In this ecologically inflected novel, Agnes, a forensic anthropologist, is asked to identify the body of a woman found in an English peat bog. Remarkably preserved, the body turns out to be more than two thousand years old. As Agnes tries to learn more about the woman’s death, she encounters obstacles from a company intent on peat extraction and a group of environmentalists occupying the site in protest. The novel alternates between Agnes’s life and that of the woman, a Celtic druid weighing an alliance with a Roman settlement; additional interludes are voiced by the moss that connects them. Agnes’s investigation sparks a new attention to the world around her, and the novel’s sensibility mirrors the peat organisms themselves, which, a character explains, are “interconnected not just across space, but across time.”